00:31:12 Veronica Caraffini: To everyone: if you want to share something with the Others, please change the "to: all panellist and attendees" so that everyone can read it! 00:35:29 Anirudh graz: there are apparently two type of participants - panelists and attendees, panelists have more options for editing whereas attendees don't ... Also if chatting please select send to panelists and attendees if you want everyone to see your comment 00:36:01 RFLangston: Personally it's taken me 10 years as a PI to realise that I don't think I want to be a PI... it was just the "automatic path of least resistance" after degree, PhD, postdoc. I just turned 40, am recovering from a bad horse riding accident and I think it's time to pluck up the courage to plan something different! I don't think I'm anonymous here either... oh well!!! 00:37:40 Sindhura Gopinath: Is this just anecdotal or is this some what real as a phenomenon? Sometimes, expressing excitement can also change depending on cultural upbringing. 00:38:12 Yael Niv: Sindhura, I will bring your question up in the discussion. 00:38:14 Sindhura Gopinath: I feel like I have to very outwardly express excitement when I feel it. Otherwise it is mistaken for disinterest. 00:38:54 jennlauralee: cannot help but bring up the class lens. basic science research is, while crucial, in many ways a first-world luxury-- and it certainly doesn't help that the people who do it are from disproportionately well-off families. during covid, non-essential researchers are confronted head-on with the reality that the people who clean our buildings, grow and pick our food, and deliver our amazon packages are far more essential to society than we are-- rightly so. it's hard not to feel apathetic about that.  how can neuroscience students organize using the privileged access that they have? we mostly work for for-profit research institutes or private universities/ hospitals-- the boards of which tend to oppose medicare for all and other basic humane policies. NYU Langone is a great example. How can science researchers organize to change this? 00:39:18 jessie: I really appreciate what Yael and Weiji are saying. I think it’s also tricky to interpret these feelings in the context of 1) turbulence in life outside of lab/family issues etc. and 2) deciding when it makes sense to change fields or careers (if a lab is supportive, and the training will prepare you to do a new thing, maybe it’s still worth sticking through a PhD/postdoc without changing) 00:39:58 EK: I wonder if this feeling also comes from the fact there is this believe that grad students have to focus on their research and be productive / publish papers in order to continue in academia. Whereas doing outreach or service is often looked down upon.. or are recommended to not do too much 00:40:18 jessie: ^ @EK yes! 00:41:25 Veronica Caraffini: @EK good point, I agree 00:43:44 avery: @jennlauralee: Re class privilege in science - I think that this argument is a little overly reductionist is. Even basic science yields the types of major innovations that push society forward and lead to the kinds of change that enabled a lot of the jobs you mentioned that are more essential. I believe it is incredibly dangerous to write-off basic science during times of crisis just because the utility is further away. 00:44:39 avery: However, regarding deploying privilege, I think it’s a wonderful idea to try to leverage our positions within these institutions. Things like organizing drives, using resources for testing, and helping with compute projects are straightforward. 00:44:55 RFLangston: I think academia is seen as a discipline that is "not just a job" so you have to be giving your all, so when you have other interests there can be conflicts on how to spend your time and what your priorities should be... 00:45:11 Julie Lee: “Basic research is a luxury” - I agree - never sure about what are feelings of apathy that vs realism. Sometimes I feel like to remain excited about things you have to have an element of delusions of grandeur - that what you’re doing is the most important thing ever to be doing (including non-science engagement), which it often isn’t. 00:46:02 Julie Lee: +1 Celia 00:46:41 jennlauralee: yes Celia 00:46:44 jennlauralee: agree! 00:47:13 Jonny Coutinho: great point @jennlauralee. & @avery: I don't think the problem is that basic science pays off in a later time, but rather how we don't need to risk our lives with subpar PPE or poor compensation to do our jobs because they are "essential", we can take the time to figure out how to work safely if at all. Not everyone has that luxury 00:47:16 Veronica Caraffini: Please remember to select "to: all panelists and attendees" so that everyone can see your message! 00:50:31 avery: @Jonny C: I was mostly speaking to the points and feelings and dangerous writing off of basic research during crises. The luxury of being paid to comfortably sit at home during a pandemic is clearly not just a luxury, it is an injustice. I’m all for leveraging this absurd privilege in the ways I listed above and more. However, I don’t think this luxurious status should be used as a tool to guilt ourselves and others into throwing ourselves in the line of fire. To address the issues of essential workers, solidarity with them and helping address their problems is the better route! 00:51:47 katic: In terms of wanting to help, I know of at least one site (covid crowdfight) trying to coordinate non-covid researchers with covid researchers who need more help. A lot of what they need involves genetics/molecular biology skills, but there have also been calls for people with psychology and sociology training and things like that. There may be other things like that out there. 00:52:29 Jonny Coutinho: @Anamaria: I agree its hard to add more to an already busy workload, but I find it easy to burnout without doing some form of advocacy work. it gives me way more energy and passion which I think is more efficient in the long run. (I read a nice article about using advocacy projects to fight burnout, I think in a physician context but the sentiment applies more broadly. ill try to find link and post) 00:53:16 RFLangston: CAMARADES is a systematic review facility in Edinburgh, UK and they were asking for volunteers capable of reading and interpreting papers relevant to COVID-19 to accelerate their literature analysis - some lab members who can't continue practical lab work are contributing to this 00:53:58 jessie: I would also burn out faster if I didn’t do advocacy work. But it can also create its own kind of burnout when you run into institutional barriers to change/societal progress 00:54:19 Isabel Low: ^yes! 00:55:11 Dariya: Agreed! 00:55:13 avery: I want to be very very explicit that “scientists” aren’t all privileged. Minorities in science are actually even less so. Our stipend in the bay puts us below the poverty line. So advocating for even more guilt for that plus pushing to work more for advocacy work when many minorities who are underrepresented are advocating just by BEING.. I think we should refrain from generalizations. But thanks for your opinion and I’m glad it helps you against burnout Jonny 00:55:30 Jonny Coutinho: @avery: I agree, covid has been highlighting many societal injustices such as these. and I agree despite this, its important not to drown in a guilt game but look positively at how we can make things better 00:56:16 EK: Agreed Celia! 00:56:33 Julie Lee: Privilege is a matter of degree and certainly minority scientists can be more privileged than other professions 00:56:56 sbrunwas: I agree completely with Celia. 00:57:01 Heiko Herbert Schuett: Regarding the societal impact: I actually have a strong apathy there. While this might feel better to me, I have strong doubts that me explaining papers to the internet void or print face shields actually helps or helps more than staying with the things I actually know about and working on that 00:58:35 avery: Oppression isn’t some sort of olypics to be triaged. I’m sure, @Julie Lee, you could come up with a hierarchy of privilege putting minority scientists “above” some and “below” others, but I am not going to advocate for everyone having some civic duty to put themselves in the coved (or otherwise) line of fire just because they are a scientist. But if you feel safe and secure enough to do so, you totally should and have my support! 00:58:59 jessie: like Weiji mentioned, advocacy work can actually impede our scientific “productivity” if we spend a lot of time on it, at least in the short term… and the most privileged people are often not the ones doing it. It would be great to build in more incentives to acknowledge and reward this work in terms of career progression. Doing this work can make our research more rewarding and societally relevant, but it can take a long time for that to pan out 00:59:54 sbrunwas: I had this feeling a lot in med school. It seemed all my peers were thinking about medical things all the time and they seemed way more passionate than me. Something that helped me is to realize I was different, and my interests are different, but still valid. I keep a folder of personal statements and journal entries that remind me of why I wanted to go down this path. It helped to try to not compare myself to others, and to realize they are going down different paths. 00:59:58 Jonny Coutinho: @avery: completely agree, sorry if I came off as generalizing/pushing for something where people are unable. being in academia doesn't necessarily equate to luxury or privilege. 01:00:59 avery: @Jessie, there are very few but really cool programs that are trying to address that point! Things like giving certifications and institutional buy-in! Stanford’s Critical Consciousness and Anti-Oppressive Praxis certificate program 01:02:20 jessie: Haven’t a lot of the most important scientific questions had a terrible reception/sounded crazy when first proposed? 01:03:10 Veronica Caraffini: @sbrunwas good point and really good suggestion to not compare yourself to others! 01:03:21 avery: +1 ^^ 01:03:50 Jason Moore: @jessie, It'd be interesting to look at Type I or Type II error rates for "Sounded crazy" vs "Ended up being important" 01:04:00 jessie: haha fair 01:07:06 Jason Moore: Regarding using skills to help right now, NYU also has a group of students & postdocs who read through recent covid-related literature and write synopses for healthcare workers 01:07:55 Dariya: @Jason is this a group that non-NYU students can get involved with? 01:08:00 Wei Ji Ma: Jason Moore - do you have a website/email? 01:08:02 avery: @Jason that’s awesome. Can you share the link out 01:08:37 Jason Moore: I'll find the link. Not sure what their policy on NYU affiliation is, but I'm sure they would appreciate the interest 01:08:52 simran: ^ COVID Literature (Remote) Read and review literature, which will be shared weekly with clinicians and other front line emergency room personnel. Submit here: forms.gle/wGda6vjKCKqMhzpK6 - form has links to literature so you do not have to hunt it down yourself. See bit.ly/NYU_Lit-Covid_ed1 to view the first edition of our literature review, more to come and will be available at bit.ly/NYU_Lit-Covid 01:09:13 Jason Moore: ^ That's it, thanks @simran 01:09:19 avery: We’ve had entire lab meetings about addressing the zeitgeist of productivity. It’s been super helpful to get our PI to explicitly state he has zero expectations of our productivity during this time. 01:09:36 jessie: I’ve also been working with n95decon.org to do lit review/experiment planning around decontamination methods for N95s. Others can contribute there as well! Although it’s a very specific application, all you need is some general scientific training. And societal awareness can help assess the potential utility of different approaches. 01:10:44 Rachel L: honestly, the most effective way for me to be more productive is to focus on my wellbeing. doing things that help me be mentally/physically healthier just helps set me up to be productive. 01:10:47 jennlauralee: A list of mutual aid + crowd-fighting initiatives: https://github.com/ScAAN/scaan.github.io/blob/master/docs/20200427_COVID_newsletter.pdf 01:11:20 jennlauralee: proper link * https://scaan.net/docs/20200427_COVID_newsletter.pdf 01:12:12 Sean Froudist-Walsh: Thanks @jennlauralee ! 01:12:35 Jason Moore: Hahah, love the Stopping Problem reference 01:14:04 sbrunwas: @Rachel L Same. Lately I have been trying to “forgive” myself for being less productive, and let myself take guilt-free breaks if needed. These are unique times so we have to be kind to ourselves! 01:15:09 avery: There’s also an entire line of arguments from psychologists right now specialize in trauma suggesting that it’s a safe bet to take care of yourself right now as a priority. Then, when we try to resume, you aren’t caught up “recovering.” 01:17:47 Jason Moore: At the beginning of the shutdown, I spent a lot of time helping 3D print face shield holders. It was gratifying to help, but I have since stopped. Our printer kept have bugs popping up, and it was becoming a full-time commitment. I was not an expert in 3D printing, so I decided to invest my energy elsewhere. It was a tough decision to stop. 01:22:54 Raphael Cohn: One thing I’ve found useful for getting reading/writing done when needed is the Pomodoro method. Unfortunately doesn’t work well for experimentalists... 01:22:57 Jason Moore: @Rachel L et al, It took me a few weeks to feel ok with having my productivity be reduced, so I completely agree 01:23:40 Veronica Caraffini: Such a good suggestion Yael. If I can add on that, a good idea is to keep this hour for the moment of the day when we feel more productive. For example, especially now, if we know we are more focused in the morning, let's try to use that time and, when possible, avoid scheduling meeting or other activities around that time. In this way we are sure we will be productive 01:24:44 avery: huge +1 to that ^ 01:24:52 Jason Moore: ^ Yes! And if it's a similar time of day, you start to associate that time of day with doing the task 01:25:58 Anonymous Student: about Yael's point, reminds me of this Reddit comment about having no "Nonzero days" https://www.reddit.com/r/getdisciplined/comments/1q96b5/comment/cdah4af 01:26:03 Yael Niv: I agree, Veronica! Also, you can keep it to only 1 hour. Then go do something else. Otherwise, if you write for 5 hours one day, then you feel that you don't need to write any other day this week, and that gets you off the bandwagon of constant productivity. Constant is important... 01:26:41 avery: <3 this chat. 01:26:44 Yael Niv: So do what you need to allow yourself to do this consistently. If that means putting timer and stopping after an hour, do that. 01:26:53 Yael Niv: In the course we had a timer! :) 01:27:07 Jason Moore: Thank you all! 01:27:09 RFLangston: really interesting and inspiring, thank you everyone 01:27:13 Jonny Coutinho: thanks for this discussion everyone! 01:27:21 sbrunwas: Thank you again for an awesome webinar! 01:27:32 simran: Thank you so much, everyone! This was really helpful! 01:27:33 jessie: thank you!! 01:27:34 Olesia Bilash: Thank you Celia for your original post! 01:27:51 sbrunwas: Thank you Celia! 01:28:03 EK: Thanks for being so open and share their feelings/thoughts! 01:28:11 Tal Yatziv: Thank you for the discussion!